READ-Adressing Stat Changes

So it's been 24 hours now since most of the guns in the game have been significantly nerfed. There are many problems that come with this which I will talk about. I did not reply on the main thread because it will just get lost in the arguements.

1. Based on what Bitzsam has said, guns were nerfed according to price. Last night he had said that the vector was a cheaper m4 with less freeze, this shows that while doing these nerfs, Bitzsam didn't have reward numbers in mind, just prices. I believe that reward guns shouldn't of been hit this hard hit now the vector is pretty much useless compared to the m4 which is available to everyone. The vector is no longer a goal that everyone wants to go for since the exact same gun is for sale in shops.

2. Many of the guns were left untouched which made this nerf not as effective. Some of these guns are metalstorm, mp5, pdw, thompson, sten, and m4. The problem with this is that the high tier guns were hit hard while lower tier were kept the same. This nerf would be more realistic if all guns were nerfed at the same rate. At the moment since most guns like ion, vector, bar, and gm4 are slow, the guns listen above basically destroy them.

3. There were many unnecessary nerfs done. The bar could of easily dropped a damage so that it could be 9 perfect and still maintain its value and the psg didn't need to be semi at all. I saw that you stated that vector was only nerfed so that it wouldn't be better than m4a3, but what was really the point of nerfing m4a3?

4. This nerf has not really shown that much of an effect in general. The same gangs still own the same bases and sparring just feels depressing. The whole game feels like multiplex but with unwanted gun stats.

5. This is the last point I have and the biggest problem. Why would anyone want to buy a gun ever again? All guns are equal now so there's no point for people to spend anymore money. Games are made to make money and that's it, not for fun, but to simply make money. Making all the guns this bad won't help this money situation. P2w games are the top money makers because they reel people in to spend their money. Making graal 100% not p2w won't do anything but make the server lose money. People in this world are lazy, they don't want to work hard they just want everything to come to them easy. When you enter graal all you got is a starter pistol and a starter knife and nothing else. You got to go out there and learn how to play the game, decide what you want to accomplish, and make time to grind and achieve that. Why is it that all the fun to use guns have been made slow, so that a $50 starter pistol can compete with them? Graal is a game that requires work, it's not like other games where all you need to do is play for a few minutes a day and turn into a God, to be a god in graal you have to be on for 10+ hours a day grinding. Newer players don't quit because they can't compete, they quit because they're lazy and don't want to do any work, they just expect everything to come free to them. If you don't want to change things back to the graal I use to know and love to play than don't. Just know one thing and that's that you're wrong, players play this game for several hours a day and know much more than any developers or gun admins.

Bitzsam I respect you for one reason and that is that you try to make this game better. At the beginning where you changed the old reward hats and make better rewards, added new aimpoint guns, and reworked gun looks. You were actually improving the game and making it more enjoyable to play. This nerf just went a little overboard and there could of been many alternate ways to go along with this without changing the entire gun system. Hopefully you have read this and understand where I'm coming from.

1. Reward prices were taken into account, if I only looked at price then vector would be worse than the m4. Vector has significantly less freeze than the m4 which is what sets it apart, the same way the souizens freeze majorly differentiates the guns abilities from guns like gm4, m4, ion, fog/ the other auction guns even though the freeze doesn't seem significantly higher.
Vector is closer the gm4, argueably better if you prefer higher spread, it's only real disadvantage compared to the gm4 is the clip size. So for a gun arguably better than something sold for 187k, for a gun sold for 40k that is not un unfair set of stats.

2. M4, thompson and sten were not touched as they aren't op. The reason people using those guns seem to be better than people using nerfed ions/ gm4/ bar is because whilst those people are used to how op those guns were and didn't need much skill to use, those people using the m4 had to do so against those guns in their significantly stronger states making them require more skill to win. Basically those m4 users beating those guns are just better players, they'd probably be doing even better if they used those guns (gm4/ion/vector) themselves. Mp5 was changed, wasn't left untouched, thompson is not op, again its down to the users- personally I was beating thompson users when I was using a neo rifle, does that mean the neo is better than the thompson? No i'm probably just a better player than those thompson users. Metalstorm remains to be seen whether it needs a change, I was aware it existed and its stats and I chose to leave it that way as I also did to the g18 akimbos as they have their flaws and were fairly balanced guns and weren't given overly strong stats for the sake of it as most of the nerfed guns had.

3. I don't really see the logic in this point, bar dealing 10 damage is what makes the gun, if it didn't deal 10 damage it would be only be worth 65-85k based on the statistics of guns in that price range compared to the bars stats even with the firerate being put back to what it was before. M4a3 was nerfed as if it wasn't then eventually more and more people would get it and then you would have the same problem as the GM4 was causing with it incentivising spammy gunplay devote of any tactics/ skill

4. The change has been out for a day, you can't expect the whole server to flip on its head STRAIGHT away. It will take time, probably a few months before you notice a difference as the majority of players beyond bar/ gm4 owners probably aren't that aware that the game is being made more balanced for them yet. Don't know how sparring is depressing as now the matches are actually interesting to watch/ play in as it isn't just down to who has the spammier gun with the match being finished in under 15 seconds.

5. They would still buy a gun for the same reason they did before. To gain an advantage in their gameplay. The advantage isn't as high as before but it still remains an advantage that players have the option to go for. Skilled players would be able to get by using cheaper guns but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't do even better if they used/ bought more expensive guns.
The option is there just instead of it being you MUST spend at least 120k+ to compete in basing or 150k+ to compete in sparring and not be severly out gunned, you have the choice to buy a cheaper gun 50-80k and have a chance using skill to outgun less skilled opponents relying on the price of their gun to do all the work

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Originally Posted by BiTzSam

1. Reward prices were taken into account, if I only looked at price then vector would be worse than the m4. Vector has significantly less freeze than the m4 which is what sets it apart, the same way the souizens freeze majorly differentiates the guns abilities from guns like gm4, m4, ion, fog/ the other auction guns even though the freeze doesn't seem significantly higher.
Vector is closer the gm4, argueably better if you prefer higher spread, it's only real disadvantage compared to the gm4 is the clip size. So for a gun arguably better than something sold for 187k, for a gun sold for 40k that is not un unfair set of stats.

2. M4, thompson and sten were not touched as they aren't op. The reason people using those guns seem to be better than people using nerfed ions/ gm4/ bar is because whilst those people are used to how op those guns were and didn't need much skill to use, those people using the m4 had to do so against those guns in their significantly stronger states making them require more skill to win. Basically those m4 users beating those guns are just better players, they'd probably be doing even better if they used those guns (gm4/ion/vector) themselves. Mp5 was changed, wasn't left untouched, thompson is not op, again its down to the users- personally I was beating thompson users when I was using a neo rifle, does that mean the neo is better than the thompson? No i'm probably just a better player than those thompson users. Metalstorm remains to be seen whether it needs a change, I was aware it existed and its stats and I chose to leave it that way as I also did to the g18 akimbos as they have their flaws and were fairly balanced guns and weren't given overly strong stats for the sake of it as most of the nerfed guns had.

3. I don't really see the logic in this point, bar dealing 10 damage is what makes the gun, if it didn't deal 10 damage it would be only be worth 65-85k based on the statistics of guns in that price range compared to the bars stats even with the firerate being put back to what it was before. M4a3 was nerfed as if it wasn't then eventually more and more people would get it and then you would have the same problem as the GM4 was causing with it incentivising spammy gunplay devote of any tactics/ skill

4. The change has been out for a day, you can't expect the whole server to flip on its head STRAIGHT away. It will take time, probably a few months before you notice a difference as the majority of players beyond bar/ gm4 owners probably aren't that aware that the game is being made more balanced for them yet. Don't know how sparring is depressing as now the matches are actually interesting to watch/ play in as it isn't just down to who has the spammier gun with the match being finished in under 15 seconds.

5. They would still buy a gun for the same reason they did before. To gain an advantage in their gameplay. The advantage isn't as high as before but it still remains an advantage that players have the option to go for. Skilled players would be able to get by using cheaper guns but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't do even better if they used/ bought more expensive guns.
The option is there just instead of it being you MUST spend at least 120k+ to compete in basing or 150k+ to compete in sparring and not be severly out gunned, you have the choice to buy a cheaper gun 50-80k and have a chance using skill to outgun less skilled opponents relying on the price of their gun to do all the work

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The fact of the matter is these major changes to the game shouldn't be made by one individual. It's clear no matter what anyone says you will stand by your decision no matter what. The problem is it was your decision and yours alone and people are "complaining" because they invested time and effort to acquire lots of the weapons you decided to nerf. In my opinion even if they all got a buff it would still be wrong because it's still solely you making these changes. There is a difference between balancing the game and showing favoritism to less experienced/non-paying players which seems to be what's going on. Your opinions and decisions shouldn't be the end of the discussion it's a community and just because your opinion tells you a change is necessary doesn't mean it actually is. Group decisions are necessary if the game admins truly want "balance".


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BiTzSam

1. Reward prices were taken into account, if I only looked at price then vector would be worse than the m4. Vector has significantly less freeze than the m4 which is what sets it apart, the same way the souizens freeze majorly differentiates the guns abilities from guns like gm4, m4, ion, fog/ the other auction guns even though the freeze doesn't seem significantly higher.
Vector is closer the gm4, argueably better if you prefer higher spread, it's only real disadvantage compared to the gm4 is the clip size. So for a gun arguably better than something sold for 187k, for a gun sold for 40k that is not un unfair set of stats.

2. M4, thompson and sten were not touched as they aren't op. The reason people using those guns seem to be better than people using nerfed ions/ gm4/ bar is because whilst those people are used to how op those guns were and didn't need much skill to use, those people using the m4 had to do so against those guns in their significantly stronger states making them require more skill to win. Basically those m4 users beating those guns are just better players, they'd probably be doing even better if they used those guns (gm4/ion/vector) themselves. Mp5 was changed, wasn't left untouched, thompson is not op, again its down to the users- personally I was beating thompson users when I was using a neo rifle, does that mean the neo is better than the thompson? No i'm probably just a better player than those thompson users. Metalstorm remains to be seen whether it needs a change, I was aware it existed and its stats and I chose to leave it that way as I also did to the g18 akimbos as they have their flaws and were fairly balanced guns and weren't given overly strong stats for the sake of it as most of the nerfed guns had.

3. I don't really see the logic in this point, bar dealing 10 damage is what makes the gun, if it didn't deal 10 damage it would be only be worth 65-85k based on the statistics of guns in that price range compared to the bars stats even with the firerate being put back to what it was before. M4a3 was nerfed as if it wasn't then eventually more and more people would get it and then you would have the same problem as the GM4 was causing with it incentivising spammy gunplay devote of any tactics/ skill

4. The change has been out for a day, you can't expect the whole server to flip on its head STRAIGHT away. It will take time, probably a few months before you notice a difference as the majority of players beyond bar/ gm4 owners probably aren't that aware that the game is being made more balanced for them yet. Don't know how sparring is depressing as now the matches are actually interesting to watch/ play in as it isn't just down to who has the spammier gun with the match being finished in under 15 seconds.

5. They would still buy a gun for the same reason they did before. To gain an advantage in their gameplay. The advantage isn't as high as before but it still remains an advantage that players have the option to go for. Skilled players would be able to get by using cheaper guns but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't do even better if they used/ bought more expensive guns.
The option is there just instead of it being you MUST spend at least 120k+ to compete in basing or 150k+ to compete in sparring and not be severly out gunned, you have the choice to buy a cheaper gun 50-80k and have a chance using skill to outgun less skilled opponents relying on the price of their gun to do all the work

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Did you just say thompson isn't op


You're kidding right. It may not be crazy in one stat but it's stronger than it should be all around...

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Originally Posted by Lazerlatte

Did you just say thompson isn't op


You're kidding right. It may not be crazy in one stat but it's stronger than it should be all around...

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Exactly for the price it's 82k. Prices should equate to performance people spend real life money for the stats.


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Zernov is 100% right :)


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Yeah I agree with Zernov, this whole idea has proven to be bad, but before we demand that it gets reverted back we should give it a try? Or at least be optimistic

Since bitzsam has never gotten 15k wins, he must think you can get this overnight, so to his knowledge 15k gralats (the price difference between vector and m4) its what 15k spars is really worth. Took me 4 months to get vector and i was doing 100-200 wins a day with a head start of 3,000 wins from non-committed sparring throughout 3k hours, imagine people that are not as committed as i was.


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Originally Posted by iMagicBae

Since bitzsam has never gotten 15k wins, he must think you can get this overnight, so to his knowledge 15k gralats (the price difference between vector and m4) its what 15k spars is really worth. Took me 4 months to get vector and i was doing 100-200 wins a day with a head start of 3,000 wins from non-committed sparring throughout 3k hours, imagine people that are not as committed as i was.

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Are you expecting a gun that dealt 20 damage? The vector is already better than what its sold for, and that's not even taking into account the 10+ skins it has that whilst don't add value add a lot of variety to the guns look and is a number that no other gun has

In this whole matter, both the admin and the players have their own part to reflect on. I wouldn't say that reither side is correct or more reasonable than the other.

I wrote two articles to explain my stand. And just in case yo've not seen it, they are here.

https://lykspersonalblog.files.wordp...ysis-final.pdf

https://lykspersonalblog.files.wordp...rf-of-buff.pdf

I'd say that Bitzsam changed the stats in the name of his job with complete disregard for the weapon's stakholders -the players.
I wouldn't want to be disregarded like that, nor as a player will I accept being treated like that. If everything is done autonomously, the era community will not be functioning like a community, but more like an oligarch or a communist state whereby decisions are made by one man.

but, the intention behind the change - to make the game more fair is actually what I support.
In this egoistic environment of the game, we players have inadvertently and probably subconsiously adopted a mindset of "things that will affect me should be eliminated entirely"
and this is why many players are reluctant to accept this change.

In our egoistic pursuit for base hours, killing supremacy and spar domination, we have forgotten about the things that really mattered. Such as the survival of other, new players, gangs etc. All these issues are derived from this egoistic culture and it has thus introduced severe inequlity in the game - making it very difficult to maintain a fair, competency based gameplay , rather than a cash-based one.

Bitzsam intention wasn't wrong. It is in fact correct and sound. We need to actually stop trying to stay in the egoistic self and actually look at the bigger picture, for the sustainability of fair play and the players themselves.

Recognise that most of the comaplaints are saying things like "I worked so hard for it..." , "I spent my own real money", etc.
I.... I .... I

its a display of self-entitlement.

And all these are paradoxical.
we players report when some players hack or abuse glitches to their advanatge. We condemn them and we probably hated them. This is because they have achieved an unfair edge over all of us. Yet, now all of us are fighting for that unfair firearm advantage so that we could exploit it to our advantage, and some of the players are probably attempting to deter this shift toward a more fair gameply environment.

Ironic isn't it?

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Originally Posted by BiTzSam

Are you expecting a gun that dealt 20 damage? The vector is already better than what its sold for, and that's not even taking into account the 10+ skins it has that whilst don't add value add a lot of variety to the guns look and is a number that no other gun has

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No, you know what i was expecting? The same vector that I've been using for over 7 months, that its not OP, and that didnt require a nerf nor a 20 dmg buff. You have to stop thinking that 1. Reward guns should be minimized because you think that 15,000 is a small number and 2. That this game will stop favoring pay-to-play because it is what it's based on and it's the way we've been playing it for over 5 years since bar and such arrived. You just cant change the way we're used to play so radically. It will not benefit the game nor the players


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For me this balance or patch is great! Now people can actually rely on skill instead of a gun that gives you the hugest advantage. This will make players be able to actually have a chance towards these pros with "the best guns" lol stop complaining and change your tactics. If the gun sucks now then use one that doesn't starter pistols are pretty decent for a start. Some people don't even know what a balance is which is funny, This was made so the scale between the players can be more even kek.

Continue your discussion here: https://www.era-go.com/forum/showthr...on-Rebalancing