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Thread: Bar owners need refund option

  1. #11
    Gun Admin BiTzSam's Avatar
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    Many people are forgetting this is an on going game. Meaning there is no sequel. If you want guns to keep being added to the game, stats have to be changed. You can't have 100 guns in the game and expect that stats of older guns aren't changed to maintain balance. Era is not the same game as it was 6 years ago when guns like the BAR were released.

    Games part of a series, eg COD/ BATTLEFIELD only last for about a year until the next version comes out where the guns are all completely different in terms of stats, effectively being a rebalance of the games weapon system- eg, the new COD WW2 is effectively the same as the last COD game in terms of gunplay, however weapon balance in WW2 was redone to slow down the TTK (need more bullets to kill people) which is classified as a fairly significant rebalance.
    The Destiny series is a good example, looking from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2, Destiny 2 contains almost all the elements of the first game, but they have been completely rehauled/ 'nerfed' down from their Destiny 1 state so that the game would be more balanced.

    Era doesn't have the luxury of doing that as there is no Era 2, so balancing changes are done when there is a need. Not only that, because Era is such a long lasting game there have been multiple people in the balancing position, each with different perspectives.

    BAR was an overly powerful gun. Significantly more than it needed to be. Back when the BAR was released, it was very early for era, and there weren't that many guns available, especially any guns anywhere near the BARs price point. Meaning there were no comparisons to really make when making the BAR, so the stats were more or less blindly given. Not only that but considering there weren't really any expensive guns, I don't think it was expected that many people would even buy the BAR so it having strong stats wasn't as much of an issue, because only a handful of people really owned it. Flash forward to now, the vast majority of players who actively PK own the BAR. Meaning it's now seen everywhere which is why changes need to be made, because the PK environment now, is not the same as it was when it was released.

    When you bought the BAR you were paying for the most effective store available weapon, and that hasn't changed. BAR wasn't the only gun nerfed during the rebalances, many other guns were aswell to ensure that the BAR remained worth its price, by remaining the most effective gun. You might not be able to do as well with it as before because the stats themselves are toned down, but its actual performance in comparison to other guns still remains. Unfortunately because the playerbase is so young, it's very hard for them to understand that. Go look at the communities of other balance heavy games that have an older audience (eg overwatch/csgo/cod/ heroes and generals etc) and you will generally see that the majority are FOR balance and nerfs to ensure the game is fair

  2. #12
    Big Cheese Blitz Canavi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ4 View Post
    You can get beaten by a m4 user
    The point of the nerf was to maintain balance, Buying your way to victory is an awful business practice in games, just look at EA's battlefront 2. If you lose to an M4 user then learn how to use the gun skillfully instead of relying on the weapons stats.

  3. #13
    Oo Sottocapo MJ4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Canavi View Post
    The point of the nerf was to maintain balance, Buying your way to victory is an awful business practice in games, just look at EA's battlefront 2. If you lose to an M4 user then learn how to use the gun skillfully instead of relying on the weapons stats.
    Yep. It isn't the gun fault it's just how you maintain it.

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  4. #14
    Big Cheese Captain LYK08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiTzSam View Post
    Many people are forgetting this is an on going game. Meaning there is no sequel. If you want guns to keep being added to the game, stats have to be changed. You can't have 100 guns in the game and expect that stats of older guns aren't changed to maintain balance. Era is not the same game as it was 6 years ago when guns like the BAR were released.

    Games part of a series, eg COD/ BATTLEFIELD only last for about a year until the next version comes out where the guns are all completely different in terms of stats, effectively being a rebalance of the games weapon system- eg, the new COD WW2 is effectively the same as the last COD game in terms of gunplay, however weapon balance in WW2 was redone to slow down the TTK (need more bullets to kill people) which is classified as a fairly significant rebalance.
    The Destiny series is a good example, looking from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2, Destiny 2 contains almost all the elements of the first game, but they have been completely rehauled/ 'nerfed' down from their Destiny 1 state so that the game would be more balanced.

    Era doesn't have the luxury of doing that as there is no Era 2, so balancing changes are done when there is a need. Not only that, because Era is such a long lasting game there have been multiple people in the balancing position, each with different perspectives.

    BAR was an overly powerful gun. Significantly more than it needed to be. Back when the BAR was released, it was very early for era, and there weren't that many guns available, especially any guns anywhere near the BARs price point. Meaning there were no comparisons to really make when making the BAR, so the stats were more or less blindly given. Not only that but considering there weren't really any expensive guns, I don't think it was expected that many people would even buy the BAR so it having strong stats wasn't as much of an issue, because only a handful of people really owned it. Flash forward to now, the vast majority of players who actively PK own the BAR. Meaning it's now seen everywhere which is why changes need to be made, because the PK environment now, is not the same as it was when it was released.

    When you bought the BAR you were paying for the most effective store available weapon, and that hasn't changed. BAR wasn't the only gun nerfed during the rebalances, many other guns were aswell to ensure that the BAR remained worth its price, by remaining the most effective gun. You might not be able to do as well with it as before because the stats themselves are toned down, but its actual performance in comparison to other guns still remains. Unfortunately because the playerbase is so young, it's very hard for them to understand that. Go look at the communities of other balance heavy games that have an older audience (eg overwatch/csgo/cod/ heroes and generals etc) and you will generally see that the majority are FOR balance and nerfs to ensure the game is fair
    Alright I get it. But the best store available weapon is subjective. There were many new guns released and these guns par with the bar in terms of their firepower. Hence it wouldn't be justified to keep bar at the same price as before because the demand for it has been balanced out by the demand for other similarly powerful weapons (that may be cheaper).

    I still think the compromise I suggested before would help to satisfy both the players and the need to moderate the guns.

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  5. #15
    I kinda agree with Lyk on this.

    I don't know anyone in the world who can tell me looking at the stats & say a gun is worth precisely $200k.

    Especially when you compare it to other guns.

    Such minor improvements for BAR should probably be worth at most 100-150k at most.
    Even less if you're talking about GM4.

    Don't get me wrong these guns are probably kind of the best but price wise they are hugely over priced.

    Like for example the difference between FAL OSW & M4.

    These guns are very similar & it only cost 10k for the improvements.

    Why should a similar level of improvements be worth 3 times more for GM4?

    BAR & GM4 are arguably still the best guns but it definitely should NOT be priced so much comparing it to the $55k-70k guns.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Name - FAL OSW price: $65k
    Freeze - 0.17
    Firerate - 0.315
    Spread - 0.1
    Clip - 20
    Reload - 0.2
    Bullets - 1
    Auto - N
    Stacked - N

    Name - M4 cost: $55k
    Freeze - 0.1945
    Firerate - 0.3
    Spread - 0.1
    Clip - 16
    Reload - 0.3
    Bullets - 1
    Auto - N
    Stacked - N

    For FAL OSW to have 0.0245 less freeze, 4 more clip & 0.1 faster reload it cost a mere 10k more to improve from M4.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Name - FAL OSW price: $65k
    Freeze - 0.17
    Firerate - 0.315
    Spread - 0.1
    Clip - 20
    Reload - 0.2
    Bullets - 1
    Auto - N
    Stacked - N

    Name - Ghost M4 price : $187k
    Freeze - 0.145
    Firerate - 0.3
    Spread - 0.065
    Clip - 21
    Reload - 0.55
    Bullets - 1
    Auto - N | Y
    Stacked - N

    For GM4 to have 0.025 less freeze, 0.015 faster firerate it cost a whopping $122k more to improve from FAL OSW!

  6. #16
    Big Cheese Captain LYK08's Avatar
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    Usually the guns are priced in order to moderate demand. With the new Nerf the demand should drop and so should the price.

    I'm for changing the stats, but I think this shouldn't be done without changing to price.

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  7. #17
    Gun Admin BiTzSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Usually the guns are priced in order to moderate demand. With the new Nerf the demand should drop and so should the price.

    I'm for changing the stats, but I think this shouldn't be done without changing to price.

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    Reducing the price isn't a reasonable expectation considering everyone else who bought it for the full price would feel entitled to having the amount it was reduced by refunded to them. The price dictates the weapons hierarchy, even if it's by a little amount, it's still better, therefore worth more. Every weapon would have to be repriced if this was even a possibility to happen, and that just isn't going to happen as the game is primarily a business

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BiTzSam View Post
    Reducing the price isn't a reasonable expectation considering everyone else who bought it for the full price would feel entitled to having the amount it was reduced by refunded to them. The price dictates the weapons hierarchy, even if it's by a little amount, it's still better, therefore worth more. Every weapon would have to be repriced if this was even a possibility to happen, and that just isn't going to happen as the game is primarily a business
    & rightly so my friend.
    Back then the stats were reflective of their price.

    Right now they are not.

    They are still better just not to the extent at which they are currently priced at.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Heres the drift I'm getting from Bitzsam.

    Back then the prices were reflective of their stats.

    This was before Bitzsam was the Gun Admin.

    After Bitzsam became the Gun Admin he thought this was a bad idea.

    He figured that maybe the reason people aren't basing, sparring & pking is because they can't afford to buy guns good enough to compete.

    Therefore, he decided to nerf all the Top guns.

    & Even though he would love to refund people their money he can't because Graal doesn't do refunds.

    He thought having weapons priced at $200k was a mistake to begin with but theres nothing he can do about that.

    So, the only thing he can do is maintain their hierarchy because he can't give refunds.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    & rightly so my friend.
    Back then the stats were reflective of their price.

    Right now they are not.

    They are still better just not to the extent at which they are currently priced at.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Heres the drift I'm getting from Bitzsam.

    Back then the prices were reflective of their stats.

    This was before Bitzsam was the Gun Admin.

    After Bitzsam became the Gun Admin he thought this was a bad idea.

    He figured that maybe the reason people aren't basing, sparring & pking is because they can't afford to buy guns good enough to compete.

    Therefore, he decided to nerf all the Top guns.

    & Even though he would love to refund people their money he can't because Graal doesn't do refunds.

    He thought having weapons priced at $200k was a mistake to begin with but theres nothing he can do about that.

    So, the only thing he can do is maintain their hierarchy because he can't give refunds.
    How are prices of guns not reflective of their respective statistics? Just because the BAR was balanced does not make it not good. Simply put, the BAR was overpowered. There were a few indicators, but the primary one was that the BAR was the obvious weapon of choice. When it’s so painstakingly clear to a player that there is such an obvious choice for a weapon, it is a sign that it’s too good/overpowered.

    On a side note, when I say “overpowered,” I’m referring to what ‘overpowered’ by definition means. Contrary to the Era colloquialism, ‘overpowered’ means something is too good when taking into consideration its cost. Like Bitzsam has mentioned numerous times, the BAR’s statistics- for quite a long time- had never been altered to accommodate the price change of the BAR(for those of you that don’t know the BAR once cost 250k). The BAR is still a fantastic gun, but now it is more balanced.

    As for “the nerf,” Gun variety is now actually a thing, and it makes basing and sparring for more interesting, and skill/personal-preference oriented, instead of an environment where there is one obvious weapon choice. That’s a definite improvement.

  10. #20
    GFX Artist chant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collin. View Post
    How are prices of guns not reflective of their respective statistics? Just because the BAR was balanced does not make it not good. Simply put, the BAR was overpowered. There were a few indicators, but the primary one was that the BAR was the obvious weapon of choice. When it’s so painstakingly clear to a player that there is such an obvious choice for a weapon, it is a sign that it’s too good/overpowered.

    On a side note, when I say “overpowered,” I’m referring to what ‘overpowered’ by definition means. Contrary to the Era colloquialism, ‘overpowered’ means something is too good when taking into consideration its cost. Like Bitzsam has mentioned numerous times, the BAR’s statistics- for quite a long time- had never been altered to accommodate the price change of the BAR(for those of you that don’t know the BAR once cost 250k). The BAR is still a fantastic gun, but now it is more balanced.

    As for “the nerf,” Gun variety is now actually a thing, and it makes basing and sparring for more interesting, and skill/personal-preference oriented, instead of an environment where there is one obvious weapon choice. That’s a definite improvement.
    The BAR was supposed to be the most effective store bought gun in the game as bitzsam said, and it still is to an a extent, a very small extent. It isn’t worth the 150k more than an m4 is anymore is all. Most guns under 100k can easily compete with a bar now, defeating the point of buying it for so much more for such little improvement.
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