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Thread: People abusing the report system.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zany View Post
    I never said the team and it’s people don’t have faults. I’m simply sharing my side of the situation. On one hand you want PRs to talk individual of their job but now you’re saying that I have to respond a certain way as a staff. I’m allowed my opinion. I’m a player too. I’ve never felt entitled, I’ve never felt I deserve anything more, but I at least deserve an opinion.

    Besides that though,

    I agree with Yukami overall. There’s a lot to this. We have to be realistic and specific. Stop putting blame and doing tit for tat. Report spamming is only punishable to far extremes. What PoeticFolly explained is accurate in many ways; we do exactly what he said (go stealth and thoroughly investigate both involved players, and if they’re found guilty then that’s that. Verbal warnings typically stop report abuse.

    There are already rules in place for report abuse but it’s not normally so severe that it constitutes a warn/jail.
    I've stated my opinion once and look where that got me, away from this hell hole.

    While you've said staff do in fact take up precautious measures, that doesn't support your own stand of how it has been effective. I've been in those scenarious and trust me, you think giving out warnings can stop someone from spamming reports?

    It's basically like lecturing except you're taking it harshly towards an animal who can't be tamed. While you may be entitled to giving your own opinions, there hasn't been any constructive feedback as a staff to improve the system other than defending against criticisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliGamer911 View Post
    Lol u guys r acting like children (no offense Wast)


    One example doesn't prove or disprove ANYTHING.

    Also, what do you want do you Management to do? Remove the WHOLE team? Who confirmed the new guys would he any better?


    However, you guys do have a point, there's a decent handful of corruption running around iEra, but, as I said before, who says the new guys would be any better? What if they're worse? We'll be back at square one.

    (I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful, but this is the simplest way I can say it. I love you all <3 ;D)
    Corruption is what keeps the forum alive and the game dead. It has already exceeded all expectation from the beginning.

    You have a valid crucial point on how the hiring system works and how we always get the same response from PRAs that 'people make mistakes' or 'we are still learning the ropes' whenever we encounter the same damn problem.
    I don't know, seeing how the current issue is always riding the same boat and hasn't made any progress throughout 7 years of existing. Beating around the bush is the reason of why daily concerns from players cannot be standardised.
    Last edited by Star*; 08-20-2018 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zany View Post
    I never said the team and it’s people don’t have faults. I’m simply sharing my side of the situation. On one hand you want PRs to talk individual of their job but now you’re saying that I have to respond a certain way as a staff. I’m allowed my opinion. I’m a player too. I’ve never felt entitled, I’ve never felt I deserve anything more, but I at least deserve an opinion.

    Besides that though,

    I agree with Yukami overall. There’s a lot to this. We have to be realistic and specific. Stop putting blame and doing tit for tat. Report spamming is only punishable to far extremes. What PoeticFolly explained is accurate in many ways; we do exactly what he said (go stealth and thoroughly investigate both involved players, and if they’re found guilty then that’s that. Verbal warnings typically stop report abuse.

    There are already rules in place for report abuse but it’s not normally so severe that it constitutes a warn/jail.
    Perhaps, if you've got nothing valuable to add to the progress of this debate then I would highly encourage you to refrain from participating in it. Your sense of self-entitlement to voicing out opinions is too strong. I don't think what I've suggested is far from feasibility and you seem to be downplaying the gravity of the issue at hand, it is not helping especially when the player who started this thread has already pointed out that it is a persistent issue that needs to be resolved.

    A person with a minimum sense of the game environment would recognise that "verbal" warnings against abusing the system is not going to work, and any assumption that it would clearly stems from assuming that all staff would do that - which is not the case.

    If a staff cannot see both sides of the issue at hand then I question their capabilities in making the environment better, and their suitability in assuming that role.
    A TAX DOES THE BEST ATTACKS ON UNFAIRNESS.

  3. #43
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    I think I understand the frustration with the report system, but I don’t think it should be altered in a way that limits how many reports can be placed on one person from one gang or anything like that. If a lot of people from one gang report one person from another gang, sure, it could be that the gang conspired to get that one person jailed. In that case, the investigating PR should check out the situation and dole out punishments accordingly. If he or she finds something like “Hey everyone, lets all report this dude for vulgarity and watch him get jailed so we don’t have to fight him!” then the PR will take whatever action necessary to punish the people abusing the system. If the reported is actually caught doing something wrong while the PR is present, then they will also get their punishment.

    Sure, it looks sketchy if like 5 people from one gang report a person for the same thing in a matter of seconds. But it could be that they all just saw the person doing something wrong at that moment and decided to report them individually. It doesn’t necessarily mean they conspired against that person. For example, let’s say you see a glitch abuser in your base. Are you going to wait for someone to go “Hey let’s get this guy in trouble!”, or are you just going to report it quickly so someone can come and handle it?

    This is also a reason I don’t support limiting it to like 3 reports from one gang on one person - more reports give more details. More details help the investigating PR to know more about the situation and track down what’s being done quicker. More reports (with nothing to suggest abuse of the system, such as gang chat history) imply that the person is actually doing something wrong and the investigating PR should take more caution with the situation and stick around longer to make sure they can catch the offender.

    PRs are taught to take action based solely on what they witness, no matter the amount of reports on one person or past history or any of that. If you suspect a PR is warning people unfairly or not punishing based on what they see, then report that PR to an SPR or PRA. If you see corruption, report it to the higher ups in charge of whoever you think is corrupt.

    Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are already limits on the report system. You can only report one person in a short amount of time, and if you’ve been warned, you can’t be warned again for the same thing in a short amount of time. I don’t think that separating out these restrictions based on gangs would work so well, since each individual has the right to report wrong doing and people can simply switch tags or leave gangs or whatever to report people again anyways.

    I’m sorry if I don’t quite understand what’s being said in this thread, I’ve only given it a couple quick read throughs since coming back from my trip instead of following it from the start.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Perhaps, if you've got nothing valuable to add to the progress of this debate then I would highly encourage you to refrain from participating in it. Your sense of self-entitlement to voicing out opinions is too strong. I don't think what I've suggested is far from feasibility and you seem to be downplaying the gravity of the issue at hand, it is not helping especially when the player who started this thread has already pointed out that it is a persistent issue that needs to be resolved.

    A person with a minimum sense of the game environment would recognise that "verbal" warnings against abusing the system is not going to work, and any assumption that it would clearly stems from assuming that all staff would do that - which is not the case.

    If a staff cannot see both sides of the issue at hand then I question their capabilities in making the environment better, and their suitability in assuming that role.
    I don’t see how she isn’t adding value to this thread. She is voicing her opinions and how she sees things, same as you. I don’t understand what you mean by her “self-entitlement to voicing out opinions is too strong”. She’s stating her side of the argument and her opinions, and she has just as strong a right to do so as you do.

    Also, with regards to admins settling gang wars and disputes - I don’t think this is a feasible solution. We can’t try and solve every dispute gangs have with each other, we can’t stop people from hating each other, we can’t know every detail about every gang and all of their problems with other people. Declaring war or whatever to staff members beforehand so that staff are aware of possible reasons behind a bunch of reports on individuals wouldn’t exactly work because what happens if someone does something wrong? Is the other gang going to report them if they’re scared of being punished for “abusing the report system”? Are you going to wait for someone to go “NO ONE REPORT THIS GUY. I WILL DO IT SO WE DONT GET IN TROUBLE FOR ABUSING THE SYSTEM”? There are also people that don’t read gang messages while in wars or things like that. Is it fair to punish them for abusing the report system if they don’t see the pm of someone saying they will report it and for no one else to?
    Last edited by failure; 08-20-2018 at 02:19 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by failure View Post
    I think I understand the frustration with the report system, but I don’t think it should be altered in a way that limits how many reports can be placed on one person from one gang or anything like that. If a lot of people from one gang report one person from another gang, sure, it could be that the gang conspired to get that one person jailed. In that case, the investigating PR should check out the situation and dole out punishments accordingly. If he or she finds something like “Hey everyone, lets all report this dude for vulgarity and watch him get jailed so we don’t have to fight him!” then the PR will take whatever action necessary to punish the people abusing the system. If the reported is actually caught doing something wrong while the PR is present, then they will also get their punishment.

    Sure, it looks sketchy if like 5 people from one gang report a person for the same thing in a matter of seconds. But it could be that they all just saw the person doing something wrong at that moment and decided to report them individually. It doesn’t necessarily mean they conspired against that person. For example, let’s say you see a glitch abuser in your base. Are you going to wait for someone to go “Hey let’s get this guy in trouble!”, or are you just going to report it quickly so someone can come and handle it?

    This is also a reason I don’t support limiting it to like 3 reports from one gang on one person - more reports give more details. More details help the investigating PR to know more about the situation and track down what’s being done quicker. More reports (with nothing to suggest abuse of the system, such as gang chat history) imply that the person is actually doing something wrong and the investigating PR should take more caution with the situation and stick around longer to make sure they can catch the offender.

    PRs are taught to take action based solely on what they witness, no matter the amount of reports on one person or past history or any of that. If you suspect a PR is warning people unfairly or not punishing based on what they see, then report that PR to an SPR or PRA. If you see corruption, report it to the higher ups in charge of whoever you think is corrupt.

    Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are already limits on the report system. You can only report one person in a short amount of time, and if you’ve been warned, you can’t be warned again for the same thing in a short amount of time. I don’t think that separating out these restrictions based on gangs would work so well, since each individual has the right to report wrong doing and people can simply switch tags or leave gangs or whatever to report people again anyways.

    I’m sorry if I don’t quite understand what’s being said in this thread, I’ve only given it a couple quick read throughs since coming back from my trip instead of following it from the start.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don’t see how she isn’t adding value to this thread. She is voicing her opinions and how she sees things, same as you. I don’t understand what you mean by her “self-entitlement to voicing out opinions is too strong”. She’s stating her side of the argument and her opinions, and she has just as strong a right to do so as you do.
    Well if you take a look at what she's been saying thus far, its basically downplaying the issue at hand and telling us that "hey. it isn't a big issue we could just resolve it through verbal warnings." So then this prompts us to question if this "verbal warnings" thing has been adopted by all staff as she did, or if its just a way to dismiss our concerns and shut us up.

    We are trying to think of new ideas to resolve this issue, not new ways to avoid or dismiss it. Of course I respect her right to opinions, but if they don't serve any purpose other than to dismiss the issue then there is no difference from not commenting at all. She thinks it no big deal and those who are wrong should be punished. Yes, I don't entirely disagree with her in that I see validity in those who are wrong should be punished accordingly. But she has obviously and recalcitrantly ignored the other side of reporters abusing the system even though the report may be valid - THIS is the issue we are trying to solve. If we are going to have someone here dismissing and trying to get us to neglect this side of the issue then its of no help.

    You need not defend for her. It is pure narrow-mindedness and naivety to downplay this problem thinking that its not much of a problem. It is evident in her inputs and I think it is only right that we focus on constructive inputs that will get us to a solution. Defending criticisms only serve to preclude the arrival of a solution through unnecessary disputes, which is a delaying tactic that I do not think should be appreciated.

    Also, if you haven't been up to date with this thread then I call to question the relevance of your inputs as well.
    A TAX DOES THE BEST ATTACKS ON UNFAIRNESS.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Well if you take a look at what she's been saying thus far, its basically downplaying the issue at hand and telling us that "hey. it isn't a big issue we could just resolve it through verbal warnings." So then this prompts us to question if this "verbal warnings" thing has been adopted by all staff as she did, or if its just a way to dismiss our concerns and shut us up.

    We are trying to think of new ideas to resolve this issue, not new ways to avoid or dismiss it. Of course I respect her right to opinions, but if they don't serve any purpose other than to dismiss the issue then there is no difference from not commenting at all. She thinks it no big deal and those who are wrong should be punished. Yes, I don't entirely disagree with her in that I see validity in those who are wrong should be punished accordingly. But she has obviously and recalcitrantly ignored the other side of reporters abusing the system even though the report may be valid - THIS is the issue we are trying to solve. If we are going to have someone here dismissing and trying to get us to neglect this side of the issue then its of no help.

    You need not defend for her. It is pure narrow-mindedness and naivety to downplay this problem thinking that its not much of a problem. It is evident in her inputs and I think it is only right that we focus on constructive inputs that will get us to a solution. Defending criticisms only serve to preclude the arrival of a solution through unnecessary disputes, which is a delaying tactic that I do not think should be appreciated.

    Also, if you haven't been up to date with this thread then I call to question the relevance of your inputs as well.
    As I understand it, she isn’t disputing what you’re saying about people abusing the report system being punished. She’s giving her input as a staff member and trying to share insight into how PRs should be investigating the situation and acting on what they find, not based on reports. She never said people abusing the system shouldn’t be punished. She said that if someone is found doing something wrong, regardless of if it’s for whatever reports came in, they will be punished accordingly. From my understanding, she’s just saying that PRs actually investigate the situation so that this abuse of the report function does not result in someone getting falsely warned. If someone is found to be abusing the system, then they still get punished by the investigating PR.

    There isn’t any doubt by I think anyone that abuse of the system exists. All some people are trying to say is that the reports are investigated and people shouldn’t be getting warned or jailed or whatever without a PR having evidence of wrongdoing.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by failure View Post
    As I understand it, she isn’t disputing what you’re saying about people abusing the report system being punished. She’s giving her input as a staff member and trying to share insight into how PRs should be investigating the situation and acting on what they find, not based on reports. She never said people abusing the system shouldn’t be punished. She said that if someone is found doing something wrong, regardless of if it’s for whatever reports came in, they will be punished accordingly. From my understanding, she’s just saying that PRs actually investigate the situation so that this abuse of the report function does not result in someone getting falsely warned. If someone is found to be abusing the system, then they still get punished by the investigating PR.

    There isn’t any doubt by I think anyone that abuse of the system exists. All some people are trying to say is that the reports are investigated and people shouldn’t be getting warned or jailed or whatever without a PR having evidence of wrongdoing.
    Look at her last post, it clearly says that these players will be given "verbal warnings."

    The overview of our discourse is as follows:
    1. There is a problem of people abusing the system
    2. What constitutes abuse
    3. How we should go about resolving this abuse

    The abuse as we have defined in previous posts may not be what everyone would assume if you follow the thread. I shall quote what she said in previous post (#40) " Verbal warnings typically stop report abuse....There are already rules in place for report abuse but it’s not normally so severe that it constitutes a warn/jail. "

    Verbal warnings typically stop abuse - this is what XSTARX disputed in his post. I don't disagree.

    "There are already rules in place for report abuse" - she did not make any provision that when players gang up to report, these players reporting will not be investigated, which prompts me to question how are these admins to discover that the system has been abused. Only when the report is invalid? But as defined earlier in previous posts, a report can be valid but it would still constitute abuse. It would then be justified to punish the players involved - the report-er and reported.

    I dispute the protocol, and more specifically question how the admins find players abusing the system if it would only occur to them that it is not abuse when the report is valid.
    A TAX DOES THE BEST ATTACKS ON UNFAIRNESS.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Look at her last post, it clearly says that these players will be given "verbal warnings."

    The overview of our discourse is as follows:
    1. There is a problem of people abusing the system
    2. What constitutes abuse
    3. How we should go about resolving this abuse

    The abuse as we have defined in previous posts may not be what everyone would assume if you follow the thread. I shall quote what she said in previous post (#40) " Verbal warnings typically stop report abuse....There are already rules in place for report abuse but it’s not normally so severe that it constitutes a warn/jail. "

    Verbal warnings typically stop abuse - this is what XSTARX disputed in his post. I don't disagree.

    "There are already rules in place for report abuse" - she did not make any provision that when players gang up to report, these players reporting will not be investigated, which prompts me to question how are these admins to discover that the system has been abused. Only when the report is invalid? But as defined earlier in previous posts, a report can be valid but it would still constitute abuse. It would then be justified to punish the players involved - the report-er and reported.

    I dispute the protocol, and more specifically question how the admins find players abusing the system if it would only occur to them that it is not abuse when the report is valid.
    Something that might not have been said, which I’ll admit probably should have been: when a PR goes to investigate a report, they should investigate BOTH sides of the report. That means observing both reporter and reported, as well as reading the pm history of each. That’s how we catch people abusing the report system. As Joey has stated, there are a few situations that can occur with each report, one or both or none of those involved could receive a warning. It’s the responsibility of the investigating PR to look at the full picture instead of only one side.

    I don’t deny that verbal warnings don’t work all the time. However, if someone who was verbally warned by a PR is involved in something like that again and is found guilty of ignoring the verbal warning, then they will be punished accordingly. Sometimes a formal warning doesn’t stop someone. And, as before, they get punished again and again until they learn their lesson.

  8. #48
    Zany
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Perhaps, if you've got nothing valuable to add to the progress of this debate then I would highly encourage you to refrain from participating in it. Your sense of self-entitlement to voicing out opinions is too strong. I don't think what I've suggested is far from feasibility and you seem to be downplaying the gravity of the issue at hand, it is not helping especially when the player who started this thread has already pointed out that it is a persistent issue that needs to be resolved.

    A person with a minimum sense of the game environment would recognise that "verbal" warnings against abusing the system is not going to work, and any assumption that it would clearly stems from assuming that all staff would do that - which is not the case.

    If a staff cannot see both sides of the issue at hand then I question their capabilities in making the environment better, and their suitability in assuming that role.
    Verbal warnings do work. How do I know? Because I can see what reports come in and don’t come in.
    I’m sick of you treating me like I’m some entitled brat who has not a lick of sense in her. It’s insulting and I have never, ever felt superior or entitled to anybody. Sorry if I come off that way, but I have to be able to say my opinion without being treated like that.

    And I never suggested that “verbal warnings” are the solution. I said one thing about that, and you’re taking that post as me saying that it’s the end all, be all. Keep everything else I said in mind, please.

    I’m done posting on this thread. I’m shaking. No matter what I say, it’s been taken out of context and I’ve been treated extremely harshly. No, it’s not “oh poor Zany” before somebody comments I just want pity. I’m sick of being treated this way for trying to share my perspective on the problem.

    I hope you guys find a solution, because I know abuse in any form is not okay.
    Last edited by Zany; 08-20-2018 at 03:47 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by LYK08 View Post
    Look at her last post, it clearly says that these players will be given "verbal warnings."

    The overview of our discourse is as follows:
    1. There is a problem of people abusing the system
    2. What constitutes abuse
    3. How we should go about resolving this abuse

    The abuse as we have defined in previous posts may not be what everyone would assume if you follow the thread. I shall quote what she said in previous post (#40) " Verbal warnings typically stop report abuse....There are already rules in place for report abuse but it’s not normally so severe that it constitutes a warn/jail. "

    Verbal warnings typically stop abuse - this is what XSTARX disputed in his post. I don't disagree.

    "There are already rules in place for report abuse" - she did not make any provision that when players gang up to report, these players reporting will not be investigated, which prompts me to question how are these admins to discover that the system has been abused. Only when the report is invalid? But as defined earlier in previous posts, a report can be valid but it would still constitute abuse. It would then be justified to punish the players involved - the report-er and reported.

    I dispute the protocol, and more specifically question how the admins find players abusing the system if it would only occur to them that it is not abuse when the report is valid.
    Look, I understand your point and I am trying to find the root of what you wish to be fixed within the system, but right now you're coming off as pretentious, and attacking a staff member within the game will not solve your issue or prove your stance.

    I am trying to take a look into both sides of this debate and unequivocally, it is not getting us anywhere but further into a rabbit hole of nonsensical jargon and fallicious rebuttals of who is right and who is wrong. I only ask that we set aside our differences and actually state WHAT you wish to see developed to solve the issue, instead of refuting someone when they tell you how the system already is, especially when they have experience on the matter. I am not attacking specifically you, this goes for everyone within this particular forum

    As a developer myself (not specifically to Era) it is absolutely crucial to be told exactly what your demands are, instead of just continuing on the topic of how your demands are not being met. It is okay to have an opinion, but what I am seeing is that people want to change and alleviate the amount of reports sent in. I have already inquired before on how this could be fixed, yet nobody wants to contribute any input. If you could please do so, that would be great.

    Thank you.
    You can find me on Era as Venus Snapdragon
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  10. #50
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